Hi Richard, We had the same thing happen at the end of November and chose the simplest option of like for like replacement, because we lost hot water to the kitchen and heating to 1/3 of the building we needed an urgent fix.  We can carbon offset our gas usage. Like you our MH is from 1826 and II* listed, unlike you we can't erect secondary glazing, so our heat loss is quite high. A few years ago we had an energy audit and proposal looking at alternative heating solutions and found the cost of the best option, air source heating, too high (~£165,000.00).  In 2025 all new homes will require electrical heating by law, which should help drive down the cost of air/ground source; infrared panels (all the benefits of infra red, without the glare); storage heaters and warm air.  Under sink electric hot water units can replace gas with the benefit of a shorter run to mitigate wasted heat.  If one of those stops working it's only one hot tap made inactive. For electrical heating and hot water you will probably have to upgrade your electrical supply - we did this last year and replaced gas for cooking with electricity which has been very well received by our user groups.  However, even with 3 phase electricity and 100A per phase we won't have sufficient power to cover the entire building and need to plan further infrastructure improvements and replacement for all three gas boilers and a 7 KWH gas heater. On the issue of noise, an air source heat pump operates at 40 - 60 decibels and is less obtrusive than light traffic.  Discrete unit location away from an windows likely to be opened should mitigate any impact, especially in winter when you install your temporary secondary glazing. If I can throw something else into the mix - battery energy storage can make a significant cost saving to commercial rate electricity users such as our Meeting Houses and might be worth adding to your planned building improvements. Kind regards, Martin Lacey Meeting House Manager Norwich Quaker Meeting House Upper Goat Lane Norwich NR2 1EW 01603 624854 Weekdays 9 - 1 07857 167322 On 01/01/2024 22:37, Richard Marler wrote:

Dear Friends,

The gas boiler at Littlehampton Meeting House has broken down over the Christmas period and we have been advised by our service engineer to replace it. It was over 20 years old and we knew it could break down but nevertheless our premises committee hadn't prepared fully for how to replace it.

We are aware that over the past few years the wardens e-group has discussed heating systems in the light of reducing Meeting House carbon footprints. However, because it is a changing picture we'd be interested in advice from Friends' recent experience and research.

We have considered air and ground heat pumps but feel our listed building status and concerns about noise and effectiveness mitigate against them as a viable alternative method of heating. The Meeting House was built in the 1830s, is a grade II listed building, has cobbled exterior walls and large windows; secondary glazing is erected in the winter months and it has good roof insulation.

We have considered replacing gas with gas and are aware that modern boilers are less polluting and more efficient. However, harmful emissions are still a concern.

We have considered a combination of electric storage heaters and electric panels but feel this would be complicated to manage and not provide hot water.

We are minded to replace the defunct combi gas boiler with a combi electric boiler. We are aware that the energy costs are much more expensive than gas but feel that there would be no harmful emissions, other than those used in producing electricity in the first place. We are encouraged by the increasing use of renewables in the production of electricity and the stated aim for the UK to be carbon neutral by 2050. Replacing the gas boiler with an electric one would be the least disruptive in terms of being able to continue use of the existing radiators and pipework.

Unfortunately our listed building status precludes us from generating our own energy from solar panels which is regrettable (especially as our long roof faces due south with no obstructions to daylight).

Advice and guidance on heating systems would be much welcomed. Thank you

/Richard Marler, Warden, Littlehampton Meeting/

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

_______________________________________________ wardenship mailing list --wardenship@lists.quaker.eu.org To unsubscribe send an email towardenship-leave@lists.quaker.eu.org

Dear Richard I came across this recent info (Nov 2023) on changes to planning permission for PV panels on listed building at: https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/historic-england-gives-the-green-light-f... I've not seen the situation and aspect of Littlehampton Meeting House myself, but from web images it looks like it has a large south facing roof (which is not the prettiest part of the building). Covering this with all black PV panels (with black surround, not silver) might enhance the appearance! Best wishes Mick On 02/01/2024 10:43, Mick Johnson (CAQM) wrote:

Dear Richard

This is a difficult problem to solve quickly and cost effectively. It really needs an expert in retrofitting old buildings to look carefully at your heating needs, state of the building and budget (capital and annual).   But it sounds like you need to make a decision quickly.  Is there any chance of repairing the existing boiler to give you time to work out your best solution, and perhaps improve the insulation, air-tightness etc?

If you just use electricity as direct heat (fan heaters, storage heaters), the annual bill will be 3 to 4 times higher than gas (7p per KWH for gas vs. 28p for electricity).   If you only need to heat rooms on an occasional basis a few times a week, infra red panels mounted on the ceilings in each room might be worth looking at, possibly with storage heaters to give a low background level of heat.  But I suspect this will be quite an expensive solution in terms of annual electricity bill

Heat pumps are a good solution in general (latest models are not noisy - I have to stand in front of mine to find out if is active), but whether they would be a good solution for a Meeting House depends on heating needs.  They will reduce the amount of electricity needed by a factor of 3 or 4 in a well insulated building, cancelling out the higher price of electricity vs gas, and reducing your carbon footprint for heating by a factor 3 to 4.   They work best if working constantly, providing the minimum heat to keep the building at a comfortable level 24/7.  However they may not be the best (most cost effective) solution to warm up a cold building a few times a week.

You could consider a TEPEO 'Zero Emission Boiler' (www.tepeo.com). It is a very large, high temperature, very well insulated heat store.  It is charged up with low cost electricity (also generally the lowest carbon), then the heat is used as in a normal boiler for radiators and hot water.    With the right electricity time-of-use tariff and careful planning it could be affordable. It is designed to connect directly to existing radiators. I think they are mainly aimed at the domestic market, so you would have to see if they make one big enough for your Meeting House.  Or perhaps it is possible to use 2 in parallel? I've not had any experience myself of these but have heard from others in Transition Cambridge that they work fine in a domestic setting.

My advice would be if possible for you to find an independent local expert/adviser - it really does need someone who can look at your specific needs.  Is there a local Transition Town organisation?  Or perhaps the local authority might be able to put you in touch with a suitable person.  There are national organisations such as the Carbon Co-op (https://carbon.coop/) and the Centre for Sustainable Energy (https://www.cse.org.uk/) with lots of information and who might be able to put you in touch with someone who can give you independent advice.

Best wishes

Mick Johnson

Cambridge Jesus Lane Meeting

P.s. The combination of PV panels, batteries and heat pump is a really good solution in a reasonably well insulated building. It is possible in some areas to put solar panels on listed buildings - e.g. Kings College Chapel in Cambridge is having 300 panels installed.  Worth talking to you local planning officer about what might make it acceptable on your building.

On 01/01/2024 22:37, Richard Marler wrote:

Dear Friends,

The gas boiler at Littlehampton Meeting House has broken down over the Christmas period and we have been advised by our service engineer to replace it. It was over 20 years old and we knew it could break down but nevertheless our premises committee hadn't prepared fully for how to replace it.

We are aware that over the past few years the wardens e-group has discussed heating systems in the light of reducing Meeting House carbon footprints. However, because it is a changing picture we'd be interested in advice from Friends' recent experience and research.

We have considered air and ground heat pumps but feel our listed building status and concerns about noise and effectiveness mitigate against them as a viable alternative method of heating. The Meeting House was built in the 1830s, is a grade II listed building, has cobbled exterior walls and large windows; secondary glazing is erected in the winter months and it has good roof insulation.

We have considered replacing gas with gas and are aware that modern boilers are less polluting and more efficient. However, harmful emissions are still a concern.

We have considered a combination of electric storage heaters and electric panels but feel this would be complicated to manage and not provide hot water.

We are minded to replace the defunct combi gas boiler with a combi electric boiler. We are aware that the energy costs are much more expensive than gas but feel that there would be no harmful emissions, other than those used in producing electricity in the first place. We are encouraged by the increasing use of renewables in the production of electricity and the stated aim for the UK to be carbon neutral by 2050. Replacing the gas boiler with an electric one would be the least disruptive in terms of being able to continue use of the existing radiators and pipework.

Unfortunately our listed building status precludes us from generating our own energy from solar panels which is regrettable (especially as our long roof faces due south with no obstructions to daylight).

Advice and guidance on heating systems would be much welcomed. Thank you

/Richard Marler, Warden, Littlehampton Meeting/

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

_______________________________________________ wardenship mailing list --wardenship@lists.quaker.eu.org To unsubscribe send an email towardenship-leave@lists.quaker.eu.org